Disabling compact view - impossible?

[Wildfire]

I have noticed there doesn't seem to be an option to disable the compact view. As I personally hate the compact view (and as I image, I won't be the only one) I'd really like to disable it -- something which seems to be impossible, at least in beta 4.

Will an option to disable the compact view be added? If it won't, it will be a serious incentive for me not to use v6 at all...

[richy99]

you can uncompact per set by using the arrow or selecting it and ctrl+h but not on the group, the reason 6 has the compaction is better memory use

i dont get the bitching behind compaction, ive seen people on another news reader where it was introduced bitch like crazy about, personally i thinkt its great, less clutter and easier to find and select things to download

[Wildfire]

I know I can temporarily disable it for selected postings, but that's NOT what I want. I really want to see all files by default!

I can imagine many people will like the feature, but at least have it possible to disable it for those who don't like it - like me. I've tried getting used to it in version 5, but somehow I just couldn't get used to it. Because it could be disabled in v5, it wasn't a problem. Now, in v6, it unfortunately enough is. However, realizing v6 is still in beta, I suppose the feature will be implemented somewhere before the final release.

By the way: memory usage isn't really a problem for me, I run a 64-bit system with 12 gigabyte of RAM. So if memory usage is a factor for using compact view, it would still be a good thing if it could be switched off for those who don't want to use it and have enough RAM. Also, I header my most favorite groups every day so there's not too much memory usage involved.

(yes, I know about NZBs and index sites, but still I notice things in groups that weren't spotted on index sites -- I came across many things I would never have thought about before, so saying "you can use NZB search sites" is meaningless because they're only good if you know what you want)

So, in short -- if a NewsBin developer is reading this: will it become possible again in future releases to disable the compact view?

[richy99]

highly unlikely it will change but i could be wrong

i know you have 12gb of ram but not everyone has that kind of spec machine, many users are still single core

[DThor]

It's inherent to the new design, I seriously doubt it could be switched off trivially. I'm not even going to try to understand what bothers you so much about it, that's a waste of time, but if you could have the default behaviour of not collapsing the sets, so they defaulted to still being there, but expanded, would that make any difference? You would still have compact sets, but the contents would be showing by default.
Otherwise, there is always v5.

DT

[alanstarr]

I also like to view certain groups uncompacted.

I found one workaround already - use Control-A to select all messages, then hit the right-arrow button. Not quite the same look as it used to be, but it seems to do the job. The only problem is that is won't re-compact again by using the left-arrow button; but it will if you reload the group.

[DThor]

Yeah, what I just suggested is exactly that, but in theory you could always have the default behaviour 'expanded'. If that's something enough people want, I'm sure Quade would look into it as an option. If it's just a bandaid over deeper concerns, though, I'd say stick with v5.

DT

[Discs]

To be honest having downloaded V6 and never used compact before, after using it for a few days I,m now begining to enjoy it, it just took a bit of getting of getting my head around it. Just like V6 as a whole something different but once you get the hang of it overall a big inprovement. THANKS

[DaveXVI]

On this particular issue, let me add an enthusiastic request to have a switch that allows the posts to be expanded as the default view.

On the general issue, how can people possibly think that everybody has the same preferences? Some of you guys act like any user who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. Take a look out your window --- there are a zillion different makes and models of cars, and most of them cost about the same. If you have more than two or three customers, you are going to have people with different preferences, and telling them they are wrong because they want a different look is not the way to make them happy.

And telling them that they can no longer have something they like about V5 because of technical reasons is not much better. The internals are for the programmer to worry about; the user interface should be all about what the customer wants.

There are many reasons I might want to download just one or two parts of a long post -- previewing an avi comes immediately to mind. It is much more important to me that it takes less of MY time to select exactly what I want to download, than that the download itself saves x bytes or y milliseconds. I often don't look at what I've downloaded until days after I've downloaded it, so efficiency in the UI is MUCH more important to me than efficiency in the internals.

[DThor]

Relax. Open the Options dialog. Start counting the possibilities. Newsbin is a *very* configurable program. Making it infinitely configurable just ain't gonna happen. I don't know where that reaction comes from - in my opinion Newsbin has too many options, it can be confusing for many.

Having said that, no-one has shutdown the expanded by default notion. If it were to be implemented, I think you'd want it per-group/GOG, in the properties.

DT

[DaveXVI]

Relax. Open the Options dialog. Start counting the possibilities. Newsbin is a *very* configurable program. Making it infinitely configurable just ain't gonna happen. I don't know where that reaction comes from - in my opinion Newsbin has too many options, it can be confusing for many.
DT

I kind of doubt that --- usenet is kind of old school. Most people today just get files from torrent or Rapidshare or something. Anybody using a newsreader is likely to be able to handle an options menu.

And it's not like we are asking for something bizarre. I'm not asking for a switch that finds all the jpegs of girls with big boobs, I'm just asking for a setting that saves me some steps in configuring the post list. Automating functions that are inherent in the program is the whole purpose of the software.

If you think the options menu is too cluttered, I would be perfectly happy with a line in the nbi file that I can edit to set my preference, as long as it is documented in the help file.

Thank you.

[Quade]

Yeah, I could add that option but, nobody would use it.

A - Ram use would be 10 times greater.
B - Load speed would be 10 or more times slower.

Basically it would be the same as 5.59. If that's the case, why not just stick with 5.59?

[DaveXVI]

A - Ram use would be 10 times greater.
B - Load speed would be 10 or more times slower.

See, that's the difference between a programmer and an end user.

Nobody is running Newsbin concurrently with a monitor for a heart-lung machine. We're just surfing the net or reading our email.

I don't care how much memory it uses, as long as it's not outrageous, and 5.59 is using about 30MB out of my 8GB. I have absolutely no interest in reducing that.

My biggest groups load in about thirty seconds. If you get that down to no time at all, but then it takes me five more minutes to pick the downloads I want because I have to keep opening up every post, you haven't saved me any time, you've cost me four minutes and 30 seconds.

[DaveXVI]

I probably should add that my problem is not with the viewing of the post list --- I usually load my groups compacted, and just expand the posts I want. I think I can do that in V6, so that aspect isn't crucial to me, but I still don't understand the concept of telling the other fellow that he is wrong to want what he wants.

My problem, in the brief time I experimented with V6, was that when I wanted to delete the par files from the download list (because I hate hate hate when Newsbin downloads par files on its own), I selected and deleted them, and all the other parts of the file were deleted as well.

So if the "compacting" is not just visual, but functional, and I can't work on individual parts of a file, then I will take your advice and stick with 5.59, and I hope you continue to support it.

[richy99]

try loading all 700 days of boneless in both 5.59 and then in v6, people do this and wonder why their machine cant cope

currently yes delting a file deletes the entire set, this is likely to change in the future

[Wildfire]

Let me just add why exactly I want to be able to have the expanded view by default (well, as a configurable option obviously):

I like to look manually look through groups like alt.binaries.multimedia. With the expanded view, I can quickly scroll through the posts list and still catch every posting because every posting is dozens of lines long. Scrolling quickly through the entire list will give me a good view what's there.

However, with the compact view, I have to really read each line to see what it is. Takes me much more time than the old way.

So, currently I'm stuck with loading the post list (usually that's no more than two or three days), selecting all posts by CTRL-A and then pressing SHIFT & RIGHT ARROW to expand the entire list.

So please: I don't mind if the compact view is enabled by default, but for those like me please make it possible to have the compact view either disabled globally, or optionally so for each individual group.

[DaveXVI]

try loading all 700 days of boneless in both 5.59 and then in v6, people do this and wonder why their machine cant cope
currently yes delting a file deletes the entire set, this is likely to change in the future

That is good news; please consider this a request for that feature.

And anybody who tries to load 3 billion headers at once deserves whatever he gets. But if you try to make a program idiot-proof, you only make the idiots happy.

[richy99]

try loading all 700 days of boneless in both 5.59 and then in v6, people do this and wonder why their machine cant cope
currently yes delting a file deletes the entire set, this is likely to change in the future

That is good news; please consider this a request for that feature.

And anybody who tries to load 3 billion headers at once deserves whatever he gets. But if you try to make a program idiot-proof, you only make the idiots happy.

it already is on the list for the future

just pointing out that not everyone who uses newsgroups has a grasp of how they work, there are many who dont havea clue and only use indexing sites, then you get the ones that want to see everything in a group every single time

[Quade]

Beating a dead horse Richy.

WildFire gave the correct answer "Ctrl-A, Shift-Right arrow". Wish I'd suggested it.

[deebee]

I agree totally with Wildfires post of March 15. In the expanded view I can scan through a list far faster than having to read each line in the compact view. Ctrl-A right arrow is not really a good alternative. It adds time, and if I delete a section or lockout a poster it takes me back to the compact view where I have to wait for the ctrl-a to expand again. I'll try to get used to the compact view, but it may be a show stopper for me. I'd hate to give up on version 6 when I know the change to have compact view disabled could be accomplished.

[Wildfire]

I agree totally with Wildfires post of March 15. In the expanded view I can scan through a list far faster than having to read each line in the compact view. Ctrl-A right arrow is not really a good alternative. It adds time, and if I delete a section or lockout a poster it takes me back to the compact view where I have to wait for the ctrl-a to expand again. I'll try to get used to the compact view, but it may be a show stopper for me. I'd hate to give up on version 6 when I know the change to have compact view disabled could be accomplished.

Indeed. If you regularly browse headers like me, the compact view is a bitch. I header alt.binaries.multimedia each day, but each time I have to expand the post list with CTRL+A & SHIFT+RIGHT ARROW because scanning through the post list is really impossible with the compact view. The time it then takes me to read half the post list is the time it would take me to scan through the entire list had it been in full view.

Basically, the compact view makes the post list far more user-unfriendly for those who want to browse through the headers.

As I've said before, at least add an option to have an expanded view enabled by default. I really don't see why it would be a problem. I had absolutely no problems with a full post list in v4 and v5 of NewsBin Pro, so why would it be an issue with v6? Especially since manually expanding to full view doesn't result in any problems whatsoever.

[DareDevil ©]

I have to say that I came here specifically after 2 days of using the compact view for the first time in v6 beta 7 and finding it takes a lot longer to browse through headers for me this way.
I came to the forum to see if I was missing how to expand a group by default or if it was gone for some reason. I understand the memory hit and the size of some groups - I never load
boneless without a filter of a few days set, but it really does take a lot longer to read each line or two of headers with the compact set on. I think that it depends a lot on how you use
Usenet and what one is downloading. I tend to frequent the dvd, mp3 and multimedia groups. I treat newsgroups as the great river with stuff flowing by and after 16 years, I'm very good
at browsing through headers, deleting idiots and downloading. This does indeed affect the way that I browse the groups.

Not bitching. Just saying that I miss the ability to control the way that I view groups. Am liking v6 thus far. Was actually enjoying 5.59 and would have been hard pressed to improve it
in any way that didn't involve injuring spammers. If you can find a way to add a button that does that...

[dexter]

I don't get it. In expanded view, all the subjects are 90% the same as the first post except for part counts and a portion of the filename. I browse headers too and I've never felt the need to do an "expand all". I don't even expand anything unless I'm testing.

Can someone please explain to me what you really need to see in the details that affects your decision as to whether you want to download the file or not?

[Wildfire]

I don't get it. In expanded view, all the subjects are 90% the same as the first post except for part counts and a portion of the filename. I browse headers too and I've never felt the need to do an "expand all". I don't even expand anything unless I'm testing.

Can someone please explain to me what you really need to see in the details that affects your decision as to whether you want to download the file or not?

It's not in the details, it's in the fact that in the expanded view there are a lot of lines with the same subject. This way, browsing through the list is faster than when in compact view because an entire screen with the same subject lines is far more easy to quickly read/judge than just one subject line among dozens of others. With compact view, it's just impossible to browse through the entire list quickly. It's really hindering me and each time I end up doing CTRL+A followed by SHIFT + RIGHT-ARROW.

Seems a bit though to put into words exactly what I mean...

[DaveXVI]

Can someone please explain to me what you really need to see in the details that affects your decision as to whether you want to download the file or not?

I have no issues with the download list myself, but I remember reading what others said about it, so maybe I can help you.

It's not about seeing the details. It comes down to how you browse through a group.

If you don't have something specific in mind, and you're just looking to see what's there, some people find it much easier to scroll through a long list with several lines for each topic, than a short list with one line for each topic. The perception is that you have to read the short list much more carefully, because if you miss one line, you might miss a post you want, while you have to miss like 50 lines if the posts are expanded.

They might be kidding themselves. They might miss just as many posts either way. But that's their preference.

[dexter]

It may feel faster scanning a list of expanded posts but is it really? I bet that expanding everything holding the downarrow watching common lines flying by is no faster than just hitting the down arrow one line at a time and skimming each subject in a compact list.

I guess its a matter of preference. It is impossible to make everyone happy.

[DaveXVI]

Well, there's also this --- a lot of newgroups are full of crap posts from spammers and virus guys. Usually, those posts are very short, while the "real" posts are typically 50 or 100 or more segments. In a compressed list, all posts look the same, but in an expanded list, the single segment posts are easy to ignore.

It's true that you can set a minimum size for the posts, but sometimes you don't want to do that, because when you find a post you are interested in, there might be comments from other downloaders about whether the post is good or bad, and if you have "ignore re:" (or whatever it is) activated, those little 1.5k comments will be right there with the main post. But if you have the minimum size set to even 5k, then you have to keep switching it on and off if you want to look for comments, which is not only annoying in itself, but may make you lose your place when the list adjusts to adding or subtracting thousands of posts.

[DareDevil ©]

I don't get it. In expanded view, all the subjects are 90% the same as the first post except for part counts and a portion of the filename. I browse headers too and I've never felt the need to do an "expand all". I don't even expand anything unless I'm testing.

Can someone please explain to me what you really need to see in the details that affects your decision as to whether you want to download the file or not?

If you watched me go through headers like a bulldozer you'd understand. I would imagine that I use Newsbin like most people, in two ways. Searching for something specific and shopping for something that I don't even know I'm looking
for. When searching, I use local search (I collect headers on about 90 groups and store them for a year) and UNS' global search (not as reliable as it used to be but still useful). When shopping, I hang on the page down key. I'm not reading the pages as much as I'm speed reading and picking up interesting posts that way. If a spammer or an idiot posts 5000 lines of 10k posts I can see it and delete immediately. I think mostly I see patterns. A good post looks like a good post. Crap looks like crap from a mile away. In compressed view they all look the same to me. Now I have to read each post like it's a book. Before I was just scanning for chapters. It's a style of browsing that worked very well for me. Friends have watched me do it and commented how am I seeing anything on the screen as it screams by. Imagine it like a cartoon flip book. If the posts fly fast enough you can start to read them up and down the page instead of across the page. This style of browsing may also depend a bit on whether you're a keyboard person or a mouse person. I'm a keyboard person.

[Wildfire]

It may feel faster scanning a list of expanded posts but is it really? I bet that expanding everything holding the downarrow watching common lines flying by is no faster than just hitting the down arrow one line at a time and skimming each subject in a compact list.

I guess its a matter of preference. It is impossible to make everyone happy.

Oh yes it certainly is possible to make everyone happy. In v5 for example where you could disable the compact view. I really don't see why that wouldn't be possible now. And as this topic shows, I'm not the only one browsing through groups like this.

I assure you, I can browse through a group faster with the compact view disabled. I've worked this way for years and have grown to be an "expert" with this method.

[dexter]

It won't make everyone happy because that method was 10x slower loading headers. So then we'd have people complaining it's too slow. You can't have everything.

[DThor]

Just to remind you guys, some perspective:

Ctl-a, then shift-right arrow

You might even want to hold off doing that for a few minutes, just *try* it as is. Obviously it won't be as fast for you at first because you aren't used to it. You might surprise yourself that having your eyeballs trained to scan quickly as opposed to the carpal approach of constant scrolling/paging is actually more efficient. But nonetheless - it's two key actions.

One thing I noticed is that the shift-right arrow action isn't on the list of customizable actions, unless I missed it. It might be useful to include that so you could remap it to make this operation that much faster.

DT

[DareDevil ©]

Just to remind you guys, some perspective:

Ctl-a, then shift-right arrow

You might even want to hold off doing that for a few minutes, just *try* it as is. Obviously it won't be as fast for you at first because you aren't used to it. You might surprise yourself that having your eyeballs trained to scan quickly as opposed to the carpal approach of constant scrolling/paging is actually more efficient. But nonetheless - it's two key actions.

One thing I noticed is that the shift-right arrow action isn't on the list of customizable actions, unless I missed it. It might be useful to include that so you could remap it to make this operation that much faster.

DT

What exactly is the difference between providing a button that uncompresses and recompresses and using Ctl-A, right arrow? Speed and convenience. If compressed view cannot be turned off by default for performance reasons then why not
just have an uncompress/compress button that will uncompress and then recompress any group? The view can be compressed by default for all groups but one click will uncompress that group for the duration of that viewing. That would seem to satisfy all except the very ornery. For the record, I do use both uncompressed and compressed views. I just find uncompressed to be a visually more complete view. How many parts are in the post, how complete the post, how organized the post is and the multiple lines allow me to take it all in in a more convenient way. I'm not suggesting that one way is superior to the other but just that one way works better for some than for others. I am currently using the Ctl-A method right now and if that was all there could ever be then that is what I would do, but I imagine that there are many users who will never know this command exists and their lack of curiosity or ability to find out will leave them with a lesser experience of a fine product.

[Wildfire]

It won't make everyone happy because that method was 10x slower loading headers. So then we'd have people complaining it's too slow. You can't have everything.

I still don't see the problem. Why not have compact view enabled by default, but configurable so it can be disabled by those who want it? Right now each time I have to manually expand the post list and that's by far much more annoying than slowly loading headers (which I've never really experienced at all, by the way).

I don't care if such an option would be deeply tucked away in some menu, hell even it would only be an option in a configuration file - I'd be happy.

[dexter]

Quade and I are discussing it

[Wildfire]

Quade and I are discussing it

Thanks.

[heyray]

Quade and I are discussing it

Please add my name to the list for an option. I agree with Wildfire and Daredevil.

[jackholexxxx]

Quade and I are discussing it

Please add my name to the list for an option. I agree with Wildfire and Daredevil.

+1

[alanstarr]

+2

[cat_man]

+3
I use both views depending on the group.

[aln]

+4

[paulwatsonjr]

+5;

It may sound couterintuitive, but it makes it easier to scan through larger groups without missing something (usually the spam/crap is individual items that you don't care about missing--the stuff people are looking for will have enough lines to get your attention...)

[Wildfire]

Well, I'm glad I opened this topic. It clearly shows there is demand for being able to disable the compact view.

Yeah, I could add that option but, nobody would use it.

You're lucky you didn't place a bet on this

[richy99]

also shows that people dont like change

[Wildfire]

also shows that people dont like change

Depends on what kind of change. In this case, the change was counterproductive for many people.

[Jean]

+6
Already searched for such an option.

[lesgrandfomage]

I don't get it. In expanded view, all the subjects are 90% the same as the first post except for part counts and a portion of the filename. I browse headers too and I've never felt the need to do an "expand all". I don't even expand anything unless I'm testing.

Can someone please explain to me what you really need to see in the details that affects your decision as to whether you want to download the file or not?

I can't believe you can't see the difference.
compact view=read each line=very slooooow
expanded view=scan headers=fast

[itimpi]

I can't believe you can't see the difference.
compact view=read each line=very slooooow
expanded view=scan headers=fast

This is why you will never get agreement in this area. As far a I am concerned I find that:
compact view= only one line per post = fast
expanded view=lot of lines to look through= slow

So it all comes down to which you find easiest to use for the way you like to work.

[BZee]

+5;

It may sound couterintuitive, but it makes it easier to scan through larger groups without missing something (usually the spam/crap is individual items that you don't care about missing--the stuff people are looking for will have enough lines to get your attention...)

I almost added myself as +6 for this very reason - then I realized that single posts have a green dot while the compacted posts have a blue dot and an expansion arrow. This makes it easy to spot
"the stuff people are looking for" buried in among "the spam/crap".

[Quade]

Just to be clear to everyone. It's impossible to disable compact mode. That ain't happening. What might be possible is a single click "expansion" button though.

[BZee]

Because blue dots and expansion arrow signal 'This is a compacted post' I no longer need/desire to disable compact view.